The rag is burning again between Paris and Rome. The French interior minister, Gérald Darmanin, created the ire of the Italian government, declaring on Wednesday that the president of the council, Giorgia Meloni, was “incapable” of solving the “problem” of migration. “Meloni, it’s like (the leader of the extreme right in France Marine) Le Pen, she gets elected on “you’ll see what you’ll see” and then what we see is that it (immigration) does not stop and that it amplifies”, he continued. In the process, Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani canceled his meeting scheduled in Paris this Thursday evening with his counterpart Catherine Colonna, judging these remarks “irresponsible”.
For Marc Lazar, professor emeritus of history and political sociology at Sciences Po and holder of the Franco-Italian Relations Chair for Europe at LUISS University in Rome, the two countries have every interest in settling this dispute, which reveals the European Union’s inability to adopt a migration policy, as they have so many strategic objectives in common. But other crises will inevitably arise as Emmanuel Macron and Giorgia Meloni oppose each other, as much by their personality as on the political and ideological levels. Interview.
L’Express: The Minister of the Interior, Gérald Darmanin, created a crisis with Rome by declaring that the President of the Italian Council, Giorgia Meloni, whom he associated with Marine Le Pen, was “incapable” of settling the ” migration problem. Isn’t this statement counterproductive?
It is a political error which does not make him grow. Carried away in his battle against the National Rally, the minister did not measure the scope of his remarks.
What surprises me is that this statement comes at a time when, after a great period of coldness following the election of Giorgia Meloni, we have been witnessing for some time a warming of relations between the two governments, despite their deep political and ideological differences. There was a real desire to calm things down and to work together at the highest level on the French side. During the European Council in March Macron declared that the two countries had to act together in relation to the new migratory pressure that Italy and the European Union were undergoing. A visit by Giorgia Meloni to the Elysée was even planned for the end of June.
I also note that Catherine Colonna, the French Minister for Foreign Affairs and former ambassador in Rome, immediately said that she had called her counterpart Antonio Tajani and hoped that the visit he had canceled in Paris could take place later.
How do you analyze this exit, is it essentially dictated by questions of internal politics?
I believe that above all it is indeed a reason of internal politics, which pushed Gérald Darmanin to express himself thus. But he makes a mistake by putting Giorgia Meloni and Marine Le Pen in the same bag, because if they have points in common, they also have strong differences – on the war in Ukraine (Meloni supports sending arms to Ukraine, unlike Marine Le Pen), economic policy (much more liberal on the Italian side) or criticism of Islam (in the name of defending Christianity for the first, and secularism for the second).
Before the exit of Darmanin, the affair of the Ocean Viking, this boat of migrants that Italy had refused to welcome, forcing France to do so, had created a first crisis last November, just after the arrival to the power of Giorgia Meloni. Why does the migration issue crystallize the tensions between Paris and Rome to such an extent?
Of the tensions come back regularly around this question since the tragedy of the sinking of a boat of African migrants off the Italian island of Lampedusa, in October 2013, which had caused hundreds of deaths. The dispute is real. And I would say that the faults are shared. In Italy, we see very badly the lesson side of the French, while the government of Giorgia Meloni has taken particularly harsh measures to reduce the reception policy. Especially since France does not make a gesture for the migrants, except to deploy additional police and gendarmes at its border to hunt them down. For its part, France accuses Italy, which receives a massive flow of migrants, of letting them pass by almost indicating the direction of Menton.
These tensions reflect the difficulty, if not impossibility, of settling this question by a Franco-Italian agreement, for the good reason that there can only be a European agreement on this question. However, a European policy seems impossible to put in place in this area. The Poles and the Hungarians – who are however the best allies of Giorgia Meloni on the political and ideological level – do not want to hear about a distribution of migrants.
Is the crisis between Paris and Rome serious?
Antonio Tajani, the former president of the European Parliament, member of Forza Italia, is a moderate. He embodies the pro-European component within this government. He is also a Francophile and a Francophone. With this decision to cancel its visit to Paris, which obviously received the approval of Giorgia Meloni, the Italian government wanted to mark the blow clearly. There will probably be some unrest for a few days, but I think that at the highest level, especially between the two presidents of the republic, we will try to calm things down. France and Italy cannot let this crisis escalate.
A number of Italian right-wing and far-right Italian politicians have already started to add fuel to the fire, and will continue to do so, in order to flatter a fairly entrenched anti-French sentiment in the Italian population – in a 2019 poll, 38% of Italians expressed their antipathy towards France. And to reassure an electorate a little troubled by Meloni’s economic policy, which does not correspond to its promises. Darmanin therefore made a gift to this right.
But Paris and Rome have very strong common interests. First, both would like to renegotiate the European Stability Pact. France and Italy are in the same position because of their considerable indebtedness, and they must act together at all costs to obtain more flexibility from Germany and the so-called frugal countries. Secondly, on the war in Ukraine, even if there are small nuances, the two countries are on the side of the Ukrainians. Thirdly, France and Italy are faced with the issue of energy prices and would like a slightly more coordinated European policy. On these three essential subjects, France and Italy must work together. Without forgetting that each country is the second economic and commercial partner of the other, and that the French and Italian employers have no desire to see the bilateral relationship deteriorate.
Are these bilateral tensions not also fueled by the personal quarrel between Emmanuel Macron and Giorgia Meloni? The Italian leader has sometimes attacked the French president virulently, who did not invite her to a dinner in honor of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky at the Elysee Palace last February…
Giorgia Meloni violently personally attacked Emmanuel Macron a few years ago. There is obviously a real political disagreement between the two, which she needs to maintain, even today, even if, as head of government, she tries to appear more respectable. His relatives or ministers of his party do not fail to hit Macron and France. Quite simply because it pays off electorally.
For his part, Emmanuel Macron needs to oppose Meloni because he clashed and still clashes with Marine Le Pen and cannot have a different attitude with these two far-right leaders.
Beyond their deep, even visceral, ideological disagreements, they are also two totally different personalities and paths. Emmanuel Macron studied brilliantly, went through the Rothschild bank and the Ministry of the Economy. Giorgia Meloni spent part of her youth in a working-class district of Rome, she did not go to higher education and needs to maintain her myth as a woman of the people. And for that, when she was in opposition, Macron was the ideal Turk’s head; today, President of the Council, engaged in a process of respectability, while criticizing him, as on the occasion of the dinner with Volodymyr Zelensky and Olaf Scholz at the Elysée, last February, she pays attention to the words she hold onto him. Thus, regarding Darmanin’s statement, his government asks for an “apology” from the French government.
However, they will have to overcome their differences, knowing that both have limited room for manoeuvre. Meloni cannot suddenly kiss Emmanuel Macron on both cheeks, because his electorate would not understand. And Macron cannot do it either, knowing his opposition to Marine Le Pen.
Emmanuel Macron seems to deeply regret the time when Mario Draghi was in power… When the Quirinal Treaty was signed in November 2021, “for enhanced cooperation” between the two countries…
The after Draghi is indeed quite complicated, for Macron. It must be said that the contrast is striking. Macron and Draghi were cut from the same cloth, ex-bankers embodying the globalized elite. There was also a reciprocal esteem between these two very proud men, who have a very high idea of themselves. Macron, on the other hand, seems to have little esteem for Meloni…
Are other crises to be expected?
For reasons of political positioning, especially in the situation in which he currently finds himself, Emmanuel Macron must show his difference with populist governments. This crisis will undoubtedly subside, but yes, there will be others, which will come from the French side or from the Italian side. The two leaders in power on both sides of the Alps indeed need to maintain this climate in relation to their electorate.
But at ministerial level, there is real cooperation, particularly in the area of defence, with regard to the war in Ukraine. As well as at the level of civil society, between employers’ organisations, for example (Medef and Confindustria), or between universities.