Four decades after the historic strikes at the Lenin shipyard in Gdansk, the giant cranes are here. They overlook the picturesque Baltic coastal town, where electrician Lech Walesa began his career. His office, where he receives L’Express, is located right next door, in a monumental building which houses both the (remarkable) Solidarnosc Museum and the Center for European Solidarity, a think tank which promotes the democratic ideal.
In the 1980s, it was from here that the trade union movement started which captivated the world’s attention and caused communist power to waver, then fall. And this, carried by a Catholic faith, skillfully maintained by Pope John Paul II. “Along with the latter and Marshal József Piłsudski, president from 1918 to 1922, Walesa certainly represents one of the three most important national myths,” remarks Basil Kerski, director of the Center for European Solidarity.
On August 30, 1980, in Gdansk, Lech Walesa addressed the workers, who had been on strike for two weeks. The next day, an agreement was signed and the Solidarnosc union was created.
© / AFP/LEHTIKUVA
World celebrity at 38, Nobel Peace Prize winner at 40, head of state at 47, Lech Walesa, who has just celebrated his 80th birthday, is the last great witness to history with a capital H, as it took place behind the Iron Curtain. Retired from political life prematurely, three decades ago, he remains a powerful symbol, who supported the pro-European candidate Donald Tusk against the ultra-conservative government of the Justice and Liberty party (PiS, defeated last Sunday), in power for eight years and defeated at the polls on October 15.
“By taking a stand against the illiberal drift of the PiS, this sincere patriot played an important role, continues Kerski. During the communist era, the worker Walesa said to those in power: ‘You do not represent us.’ In recent years, the fervent Catholic that he remained has repeated the same thing to PiS and to the bishops who support this party.” In doing so, Walesa kept Solidarnosc’s legacy intact and confirmed that the “iron man” of the 1980s had not usurped his nickname. Exclusive meeting.
L’Express: What does the opposition’s victory on October 15 and the defeat of the ultra-conservative nationalist PiS inspire you?
Lech Walesa: It is the end of eight years of populism and demagoguery. The Poles can be proud of the result and walk with their heads held high again. Our country is finding its way back to authentic democracy. In power, the conservatives disdained the voters. Once elected, they did as they pleased. The Poles sanctioned this way of doing politics without listening to the people. The coalition led by Donald Tusk will do exactly the opposite. Poland is taking a new turn that allows it to move forward. She will be reconciled with the European Union.
What assessment do you draw from the era of Lech and Jaroslaw Kaczyński, both former members of Solidarnosc (one was president from 2005 to 2010, the other has been president of PiS since 2013)?
They have placed incompetent and malicious people at every level of the administration. We must now depoliticize the public media and the justice system where they have placed their pawns. Poland will also have to apologize to Brussels for the violation of European law, called into question by the outgoing government.
The latter is, moreover, dishonest, as shown last month, in the middle of the electoral campaign, by the “visa scandal” involving the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and his entourage. [NDLR : l’affaire concerne une filière d’immigration clandestine depuis l’Asie et l’Afrique impliquant des consulats polonais et des sociétés extérieures rémunérées].
What are the qualities of Donald Tusk, who was Prime Minister from 2007 to 2014 and President of the Council [réunissant les chefs d’Etats des 27] from 2014 to 2019?
He is a very intelligent man. He has audacity. This is the best for Poland. He’s even better than Walesa (laughs)! That’s why I support him. He is the man our country needs, he speaks foreign languages, he understands the world and international relations.
Lech Walesa, “man of the year 1980” according to L’Express
© / The Express
Poland has become an extremely polarized country. What remains of the notion of solidarity, dear to Solidarnosc?
It was another era. The solidarity of the Poles was based on the rejection of communism, which was unifying. When the Soviet Union collapsed, our successful fight for freedom ended. And everyone went home… People scattered. To be united, you need a focal point. The war in Ukraine, solidarity with Ukrainians, resistance to Russian aggression can be this focal point.
Did Russia’s invasion of Ukraine surprise you?
No way. I announced it shortly before the invasion. And if I go back even further in time, I told the Americans, as early as the 1990s, that the Russian danger would not end with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the USSR. I told them: you have to present the bill to Moscow and make Russians understand how bad the Soviet Union was.
“By attacking Ukraine, Putin made a huge mistake”
I thought it was necessary to make the Russians understand the evil they had caused and, also, that we had to help them reform their country from the inside. But some very smart people convinced me that I was wrong. When I was president, from 1990 to 1995, Madeleine Albright, Bill Clinton’s secretary of state, came to my office to explain to me that it was not the time to shake up Moscow, that Gorbachev – a very well, I concede – was better than all his predecessors and that he would make reforms in due time.
I insisted, I warned that the Russians would not make any reforms of their own free will, without outside help. So, Madeleine Albright unfolded a map of the world on my desk, with lots of little yellow dots indicating the missiles aimed at Europe. “We must leave them alone, the reforms will come later,” continued the head of American diplomacy. No reform ever came…
What is your definition of Vladimir Putin?
He made a huge mistake by attacking Ukraine. He has weakened Russia, which has the world against it. If Russia loses this war, it may be time for it to reconsider. But we will have to help him. First we must let the Russians know that we are not against them. We must tell them by all means, in order to counter Russian propaganda which says the opposite. Then, we will have to help them modernize their institutions so that they escape from their dictatorial system. If Ukraine wins and we do not help the Russians modernize their country in a more democratic way, then they will attack Kiev again in a few years.
Lech Walesa, on October 17, 2023, in Gdansk, answers questions from L’Express in his office, located in the same building as the “Solidarnosc museum” (European Solidarity Center, ESC)
© / European Solidarity Center
In short, we must apply the method that made Solidarnosc successful. When the war is over, we will have to use persuasion and fight with ideas, rather than with tanks and missiles. This is the method that was used during the Cold War with media like Radio Free Europe (a Western station which broadcast its programs behind the Iron Curtain). It worked. We must therefore return to it, by all means, especially social networks, because the war of propaganda and ideas is being lost.
Does Poland feel threatened by Russia?
If we had not joined NATO in 1999 and the European Union in 2004, then it was Poland that Russia would have attacked. This is why we stand together and help the Ukrainians.
Is the world more dangerous today than the one you knew in the 1980s?
We live in a world without clear rules. The only code that still seems to be respected is the highway code, and even that is not guaranteed. Many leaders have taken Russia as a model, demagoguery is on the rise, and authoritarianism is gaining ground. Our world is like a road network without road signs, with no new ones in place. A world has passed away, and it has not been replaced. We are in a transitional phase.
The rise of populist movements should encourage us to defend our democratic values. Fortunately, Poles took this path by voting for Donald Tusk, his team and his allies on October 15. The world must reorganize itself to better manage globalization. For the moment, we suffer from the lack of visionary leaders capable of strengthening Europe, and the continental scale is the only one that can be effective. In Europe, every country, including the largest, is too small to cope with China, Russia and other global players.
Is religion as important in Poland today as it was during the Solidarnosc era?
Probably not. In the 1980s, Pope John Paul II played a considerable role: he allowed us to organize ourselves. At the beginning of our fight for the right to organize, the communists used all kinds of methods, including psychological ones, to divide us. There were arrests, imprisonments, then a state of siege on December 13, 1981. When we began our struggle, there were a few dozen of us.
At one point, the Pope instilled hope. And he did something remarkable: he asked us to organize ourselves to pray. And while praying, we all looked at each other and understood that there were not dozens of us, but millions. We measured our strength. The Pope made Solidarity possible and the Soviet Union began to falter. He gave us the words; and we have accomplished the actions.
With Solidarnosc, you made history. There was also this remarkable logo and a wonderful mustache: yours! Have you ever thought about shaving it?
This grew before I became known during a two-week stay in prison. I couldn’t shave. I kept it. Then everyone knew me because of my mustache. I couldn’t delete it anymore. And I’m not going to start shaving now!