From the revolt of the Iranian women to our controversies on the “French civility”, the veil remains an explosive subject throughout the world. In The “Islamic” Veils in Muslim and European societies*, the historian Oissila Saaïdia, professor at the University of Lyon II, retraces the debates aroused by this fabric from the 19th century to the present day. Is freedom “in the hijab”, as a Council of Europe campaign proclaimed in 2021? According to the academic, the veil is, at least for some women, an unexpected means of emancipation. Interview.
The Express: What is the meaning of the veil in the Quran and other Islamic sources? Does it symbolize the submission of woman to man?
Oissila Saaidia: The historian that I am is not interested in the meaning of religious texts, but how they have been understood over time, according to places and different theologians. Indeed, no text “speaks” in an unambiguous way: it is always the object of interpretations, and the Koranic passages, just like the hadiths, are no exception to this rule. Some have seen the veil as a sign of submission, as in Christianity with John Calvin in his Biblical commentaries. First Epistle to the Corinthians ; others, like Imam Kahina Bahloul, to stay in France, offer a completely different reading. In history, any generalization is to be avoided…
Haïk, chador, niqab… How to explain the diversity of veils in the Muslim world?
The plurality of words that refer to the terms “veil” and “headscarf” covers diverse realities both in the form of these garments, the places and historical periods where they are worn, and in the status of the veils and of the women who wear them. wear them. For example, the haik is a large stole, usually made of white silk, worn by women in Algiers and Tunis. In Tunisia and Algeria, from the 19th century to the first part of the 20th century, this garment refers to the world of the urban bourgeoisie and married women, not to that of peasant women. It becomes visible in the public space from the inter-war period.
You will recall that the term “veil” imposed itself in our vocabulary towards the end of the 1990s to the detriment of that of “headscarf”. Is there a difference between the two?
The word “scarf” evokes, it seems to me, more the European cultural space. It is reminiscent of elegant women, of Grace Kelly… At first, it was made to be seen – that’s why Hermès scarves are so beautiful! The word “veil” is more associated with the Orient, with Salome’s “dance of the seven veils” or with the haik. It is foreign and, at the same time, one recognizes something in it. I think moving from one term to another reveals a new perception. The latter would be linked to the fact that the scarf covering the head became marginal in the wardrobe of women in Western Europe during the 1980s. This is why, in this context, the scarf/veil worn by Muslim women would appeal more.
You identify two main stages in the history of the veil from the 19th century to the present day: a phase of decline, then a period of return. That’s to say ?
At the end of the 19th century, throughout the Islamic world, women who covered themselves are mostly city dwellers. In the countryside, peasant women wear headscarves. Gradually, from the inter-war period, some city dwellers began to remove the veil. Leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk [président de la République de Turquie de 1923 à 1938], which designs modernization through the Western model, becomes the spearhead of the fight against this garment. A new image of women is being constructed and is part of the program of westernization, and therefore of liberalization, of women. The autocratic Iran of Reza Shah [1925-1941] follows suit, again in the name of modernity.
From the 1950s to the end of the 1970s, the traditional veils seemed to mark time, Egyptian cinema conveyed the image of a modern country where women followed the fashions of Paris, Milan, or even New York. Unveiling becomes the symbol of modernity. A turning point took place from the Iranian revolution in 1979. The advent of the Islamic Republic of Iran marked a major moment in the “return” of the veil, according to new modalities, on a worldwide scale. Muslim. It was under this regime that he appeared on screens around the world. Since the 1970s, Muslim societies have experienced, like all others, a strong process of individualization which goes hand in hand with a rejection of authority in all its forms. Rejecting parental authority and reversing the transmission of knowledge, educated youth intends to explain to their elders the “true” religion.
You analyze the multiple springs of wearing the veil in Tunisia today…
From the 2000s, what the Tunisian sociologist Mohamed Kerrou calls “new veils” emerges. They are also objects of adornment: in color, they match the clothes and accessories worn. It’s about living your faith while being attractive. Finally, the veil allows access to certain spaces to better manage the mix, to “halalize” it, because it would “prevent” male desire. It also participates, for some Muslim women, in acquired rights to invest new spaces and conquer new rights, while others continue to denounce it.
Why is the veil a “French passion”?
One of the possible explanations would lie in the fact that throughout its history our country has had difficulty in managing pluralism and religious diversity. The Republic was built in opposition to the Catholic Church, and secularization in France was coupled with a process of secularization. Religion has gradually been erased from public space. The veil is a French passion, because it reactivates something rooted in our history, we who have built our republican model, in particular against the Catholic Church. In addition, he meets another French passion, school, with the debates on the wearing of the veil in the school space. Some abroad find it difficult to understand the importance of this issue for us. For example, in the United States, where religious pluralism is one of the foundations of the country, wearing the veil is a non-issue.
Isn’t the veil contrary to our “civility”, our conception of the relationship between men and women, as Emmanuel Macron asserted in 2018? One thinks of gallantry, of courtly love…
In the courtly love of medieval times, women are generally veiled: it is a social construction of the norm. As for the words of Emmanuel Macron, we are beginning to see this type of discourse emerge from the beginning of the 2000s. It is part of a given society. From September 11, 2001, Islam is perceived as a threat. The view of Muslim societies is undergoing changes with the rhetoric of the “clash of civilizations”, the FN of Jean-Marie Le Pen, which reaches the second round of the presidential election of 2002, etc. Islam is then perceived as a foreign religion. But we are realizing that it is part of our history. What scares the most are not women wearing the niqab, but those who speak French and are in higher education. In other words, for me, it’s not otherness that frightens, but the opposite.
According to Green MP Sandrine Rousseau, wearing the veil can be an “embellishment”. But many women around the world are forced to wear this garment.
It is very important to have a balanced position. This is not to say that no veiled woman is an actor in her own life, nor that they all are. We are not able to quantify the phenomenon, except in very specific cases. In Iran, the veil is an obligation experienced as an oppression by all these women who demonstrate today and since the creation of the Islamic Republic. We cannot make a comparison with France, even if the women who wear it in our country are not all free to do so and may be subject to direct pressure or forms of social coercion.
Still, for some observers, the choice to wear the veil is a matter of voluntary servitude…
The question of voluntary servitude refers to psychology, and I am neither a psychologist nor a psychoanalyst! This notion could be applicable to so many other fields that it does not seem to me, formulated like that, relevant for the historian that I am.
The Council of Europe caused controversy in 2021 with a campaign claiming “Freedom is in the hijab”…
This communication was perceived in France as extremely aggressive. For some women, the veil is emancipatory; for others, it oppresses and we have to worry about it in a country like ours. But also listen to those who say: “It’s my choice.”
With the revolt of Iranian women, are we entering a new phase of unveiling?
In Iran, women have been coming forward since the early 1990s and are subject to government repression. The revolt is not about religion as such, but about the rejection of a political system where religion is omnipresent. The issue of the veil will continue to be debated in some countries. In Iran, rejection can only go on increasing, with the individualization of a youth connected to the world, educated and cultured. I am convinced that the moment of changeover will come.
In other countries, the veil is a non-issue. In Tunisia, women veil and then reveal themselves. There may be different life paths for each woman. In France, the question will resurface next year, on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the 2004 law on the wearing of conspicuous religious symbols at school, it will still be exploited by a certain number of politicians. But one of the novelties lies in the generational factor: young people in their twenties have a much more plural vision of society, whether on the veil or on other questions, such as gender.
* “Islamic” Veils in Muslim and European societies. History of a debate (19th-21st century), by Oissila Saaidia. Ed. du Cerf, 236 p., €20.