Tired by the past few weeks, but moved by an intact fighting spirit, the mayor of Warsaw Rafal Trzaskowski, takes stock, for L’Express, of the immense outpouring of solidarity of the Poles towards the Ukrainians fleeing the war and the army Russian. This figure of the liberal opposition does not hide his concern about the lack of housing and the refusal of the ultra-conservative government of the Law and Justice party (PiS) to call on external support.
L’Express: The last two days have been marked by a violent exchange between Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki and Emmanuel Macron (the first reproached the second for “negotiating with Hitler” by speaking with Vladimir Putin, the French president called him in response “as a far-right anti-Semite, which bans LGBT”). What do you think ?
Rafal Trzaskowski: This is truly tragic and irresponsible. It was our Prime Minister who decided to launch this anti-French rhetoric. I hope that Emmanuel Macron, whose re-election I wish, will forget these exchanges and that we will strengthen Franco-Polish relations, which are very important in this crisis situation. It is absolutely essential that Europe has a very strong, unified position.
The 330,000 Ukrainians who settled there increased Warsaw’s population by 15%. None are on the street. How is such a miracle possible?
It is the result of a civil society in action, of a gesture of solidarity from the inhabitants, who welcome people into their homes. They did everything, with the help of NGOs and cities. The reception centers that we have set up only serve two or three days, before the Ukrainians are directed to private apartments, or other cities in Europe and Poland. We organized everything first, here in Warsaw. Because the government has only taken its responsibilities near the border, where it has helped to create seven reception centres.
But Warsaw is not reaching its limits?
Yes, that’s certain, especially since we could face a second wave, with the intensification of fighting in eastern Ukraine, the evacuation of Donbass. We have all seen what happened in Boutcha and around kyiv. I am really very worried. Because many citizens of Warsaw, tired, do not imagine being able to welcome refugees for more than two or three months.
We risk a crisis with 30,000 homeless people, or even more. We are in the process of preparing accommodation, transforming office buildings. But it will only be possible to adapt half a dozen, for 3,000 or 4,000 people. Not ten times more.
You also have to manage the rest, such as the schooling of refugee children…
Yes, it is first and foremost up to us to distribute aid. And the government places the administrative burden of reception on us, such as registering for a Pesel number, which gives access to all social benefits. There is also access to care, to hospitals and also, yes, education. It is estimated that there are 130,000 Ukrainian children to be educated in Warsaw. However, it is impossible to create such a number of places in our schools, which already accommodate 280,000 students. And the government has no strategy…
What do you propose ?
First, support the distance education offered by the Ukrainian government. Second, to open schools in Warsaw to children who speak a little Polish. We have already accepted 15,000. Third, strengthen the Ukrainian school in Warsaw, attached to the embassy. The Minister of Education says “yes, why not”, but there are no formal decisions on this.
What should the government do?
Give the green light to structured aid, with the European Union (EU) and the UN, which have many programs to help refugees. We need the EU to launch a solidarity platform and a relocation mechanism for volunteers – let’s avoid quotas, a crazy idea, controversial. Especially since most member states have said they are ready to accept refugees.
But you have to coordinate: two weeks ago, my phone calls sent 200 people to Vienna, 200 others to Amsterdam, and so on. The government also did that. But it’s improvisation, when we have to coordinate, we distribute the responsibility, especially if there is a second wave.
A woman carrying a child boards with other Ukrainian refugees aboard a train to Warsaw, at the Przemysl station near the Ukraine-Poland border on March 31, 2022.
afp.com/Angelos Tzortzinis
What is the reason for this government wait-and-see attitude?
Jaroslaw Kaczynski [président du parti Droit et Justice (PiS) et homme fort du pays] said that Poland does not need help and relocation. Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki follows this line. Perhaps they are thinking of the elections and want to be able to say that they have managed the problems alone, even though they could give their agreement to the EU and have the government assume the coordination. Enough to sell this as an incredible success.
What aid does the city of Warsaw send to Ukraine?
We started on the second day of the war to collect money to meet the needs of kyiv, Kharkiv or Lviv. Every day, we send shipments of medicines, hygiene products, food, with the support of civil society and businesses. I am in regular contact with the mayor of kyiv, Vitali Klitschko. We talk in Russian together, while there is a Russian invasion, it’s surreal.
How to explain this solidarity, despite a painful past, such as the massacres of Poles by Ukrainians during the Second World War?
Almost the entire political class has done a lot for the reconciliation of Poles and Ukrainians for almost 30 years, especially at the level of regions and cities, through twinning. The exception is the PiS government, with memorial laws that have contributed to tensions with Israel and Ukraine. But let’s move on. We Poles know well that Ukrainians are fighting for the freedom of all of Europe. It has been said for more than ten years that Vladimir Putin is an unpredictable dictator.
“Refugees represent a huge opportunity for our aging society”
What do you think of the Hungarian government of Viktor Orban, big winner of the legislative elections of April 3, who said he was ready to pay for Russian gas in rubles?
Cooperating with Vladimir Putin has been Viktor Orban’s policy for years. It made Hungarians totally dependent on Russian energy. He was always cynical: during the election campaign, he said that the opposition wanted war… And he made his untenable proposals concerning the partition of Ukraine.
Protesters with a Ukrainian flag during a demonstration for peace in Ukraine, in Warsaw, February 20, 2022.
afp.com/Wojtek RADWANSKI
A million Ukrainian refugees could stay in Poland after the war, or even more. Don’t you fear a xenophobic surge?
There is a risk. But pro-Ukrainian sentiment is so strong that it will be very difficult to reverse it. These refugees represent a huge opportunity for our aging society. They will contribute to the social system and will help our economy. This will change the nature of our relationship with Ukraine, with which we are now very close. In this huge tragedy, there will be opportunities for all of us.
Poland will experience crucial elections next year. Doesn’t the failure of the Hungarian opposition against Viktor Orban presage a new victory for the PiS, which is still at the top of the polls?
The opposition is stronger here than in Hungary. Donald Tusk [leader du principal parti d’opposition, Plateforme civique, Premier ministre de 2007 à 2014, puis président du Conseil européen jusqu’en 2019] is in discussion with other parties – Poland 2050, the Farmers’ Party, the left – to come to an alliance.
We are aware that we must unite and work together to get this government out of the PiS. With four or five lists, it will be defeat. Especially since the government will try to use this great Polish solidarity to make people forget its faults and its attacks on the rule of law. However, in the current situation, Poland must be a strong symbol of democracy. Not a weak link.
Interview by Clément Daniez