The years go by and, apparently, Sofi Oksanen does not change: in front of us, in the offices of her French publisher (Stock), she still has her Amy Winehouse look. Fundamentally, however, it has evolved. The war in Ukraine made him abandon the novel for the essay. In Twice in the same river, she devotes chilling pages to the sexual crimes of Putin’s soldiers, and places them in the long history of an imperialist Russia – “colonialist”, in her words. All this while often sending us Westerners back to our blindness. Interview.
L’Express: Do you really think we are blind?
Sofi Oksanen: Let me show you this with a digression… I always wanted to write, but when I was a child, I didn’t know what I was going to write about. The history of the USSR, Russia and Estonia fascinated me. In the early 2000s, I noticed that the political winds were changing in Russia. And I had the impression that in Finland people of my generation didn’t realize it – let’s be clear: they didn’t care.
From my first book, Stalin’s Cows (2003), I spoke about Estonia’s Soviet past while wanting to make Westerners understand the essence of Russian imperialism. When journalist Anna Politkovskaya was murdered in 2006, it made some waves but it wasn’t enough to open people’s eyes. Then there were the cyberattacks in Estonia in 2007, the annexation of Crimea in 2014, and finally the invasion of Ukraine in 2022… When I talk to so-called Russia experts about the cyberattacks on Estonia, they sometimes barely remember it, even though everything was already there: the contempt of neighbors and the fascist rhetoric. No one has analyzed this well, for my part I see it as a starting point. But the Russians had poured floods of money everywhere, in London and elsewhere, and many people had better remain blind…
You mentioned in Purge sexual crimes committed in Soviet Estonia, which we find in Ukraine today. How do you explain this repetition of history?
Sexual crimes are part of the specifications of colonialism. Russia is never considered a colonial power, and this is one of the keys to Western incomprehension. When you start from this principle, everything becomes clear: Putin and the Russians are not crazy, they just behave like a colonial power.
In your opinion, imperialism and misogyny go hand in hand?
Absolutely. In the past, the USSR had good tools for spreading – the best of them being the communist illusion, very pretty on paper, less so in reality. The Orthodox religion being more difficult to transmit, they needed something else, and it must be recognized that misogyny and homophobia are unifying – in all societies you have misogynistic and homophobic people. Even in France, where equality is strongly defended, Russian virilism can seduce.
You write in your book that Russian women are in solidarity with the crimes of their husbands, brothers or children…
First of all, a good patriot must support her husband and the regime. Loyalty is important. And I remind you that historically women did not find slavery more problematic than men. The Russians believe that Ukrainians are inferior human beings, and see Ukraine as a colony that must submit and from which you can take whatever you want. This often explains the violence of Russian soldiers throughout history: they think they are arriving among backward people, they come across people who have more means than they thought – and envy fuels hatred.
Do you share the opinion of Timothy Snyder describing Russian regime as ‘schizo-fascist’ ?
Absolutely: Russia describes all its opponents as “fascists” when, if there is a country that is on our continent, it is Russia. I had the feeling that in the West we found Putin folkloric when he said he wanted to “denazify” Ukraine. On the contrary, I think that we must take his rhetoric seriously. In recent years, in France, you have had beautiful souls who wanted to maintain a dialogue with Russia. But the dialogue with Putin’s Russia is a smokescreen.
We know your admiration for Svetlana Alexievich, which you mention in your essay. What books or authors would you recommend to us to overcome our blindness?
In the first place, Ukraine: The Forging of a Nation by Yaroslav Hrytsak. This is an excellent book on the history of Ukraine, very accessible. And everyone should read Red famine by Anne Applebaum, who recounts the Holodomor, this famine orchestrated by the Soviets in Ukraine in the early 1930s, and which killed 4 million people, or 10% of the Ukrainian population at the time. It is a major event of the 20th century, a real genocide, but it was cleverly hidden by Stalin. Famine is a political tool that the Russians are still using right now by destroying the fields. For those who know the story, this is no surprise. Nothing that is happening now is new…
Let’s talk a little about you. What is your situation in Russia? Are your books banned there?
Oh, I haven’t been to Russia since 2010, and the least we can say is that I’m not advised to go back… Purge had been published in Russia, but it had been quite a novel… At first, they had just bought the rights from me, that was fine. I had met the editor: intelligent, kind, nothing to complain about. Then, when I received the tests, things got tougher. Before the actual text there was a warning saying that I was describing the Russians throughout the pages as drunkards, all “drunk like pigs” – which wasn’t even true! I was able to have this warning removed, before realizing that the translation was bad, very random, and that chapters were missing… Then the book was very poorly distributed, the booksellers who requested it had difficulty hard to receive it. I don’t know what the literature that has been published in Russia over the last ten years looks like. I imagine that the one who has a little visibility is in solidarity with the regime and takes soft power…
Do you have a novel project at the moment or does the current situation permanently condemn you to non-fiction?
My latest novel, The dog park (2019), already spoke about Ukraine. I have a novel in the works but it requires time and calm, a certain comfort. In 2023, the essay is a more necessary form, which can embrace the urgency of the crisis. As Ukrainian poet Halyna Kruk says: “Metaphors and poetry are not much help when facing a Russian tank.”
In a world where social networks promote emotion, does literature still remain the refuge of thought?
I am not criticizing those in Europe who are not faced with the war in Ukraine: they have busy days and do not have time to study the issue. But the information tends to stop at tanks and bombings, and evacuates analysis. Questioning the permanence of rape as a war crime, the deep roots of this conflict, the civilizational questions it raises and the repercussions it will have for decades: this is what pushed me to write this test.
Twice in the same river. Putin’s war on women by Sofi Oksanen, trans. from Finnish by Sébastien Cagnoli. Stock, 302 p., €21.90.
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