After each question, or almost, he insists: no, the riots that France has experienced in recent days do not express a “problem in the suburbs”, but they reflect a general malaise in all territories far from decision-making centers . Elected mayor of Saint-Ouen (Seine-Saint-Denis) in 2020, the socialist Karim Bouamrane, also chairman of the supervisory board of the Société du Grand Paris, warns of the gradual disintegration of the republican promise in the country, caused in particular by deterioration of public services. He pleads for less centralized, less Jacobin governance: “The answer will come from the territories”, he predicts. Interview.
L’Express: In your opinion, who are the rioters that we have seen in action for several days?
Karim Bouamrane: As a preamble, I have a solemn, strong thought for Nahel’s family and loved ones. As mayor, unfortunately I see it every week, the loss of a child is the worst thing that can happen. We do not yet have any scientific, sociological or demographic information, but if I refer to the words of the president of the Bobigny court [Seine-Saint-Denis], they are mostly young people under the age of 18 and, what is certain, is that they are French. First of all, I want to brush aside the alleged problems related to immigration in this country: the subject cannot be understood in the light of this question, as was already the case in 2005 or in the 1990s.
What did you understand of their demands? Can we speak of social revolt?
I would first like to say that, in the immediate term, the absolute priority for us, the mayors and elected officials, who are on the front line, is not only to call for calm, for appeasement by all our relays, but also protect public property and people. We are mobilized twenty-four hours a day, and this is not an expression: we must ensure the continuity of public services in this context where we are still at level 3 of the security plan.
It hurts my heart to say it: yes, it’s the suburbs, yes, it’s the outskirts that have been hit, yes, it’s Paris, yes, it’s the big cities, but it’s above all the Republic in the diversity of its territories which has been. Riots, revolts… We do not yet know how to characterize what happened, but what is certain is that these events took place in an unprecedented, multifactorial political situation. There was a health crisis; now there is an economic crisis, a social crisis, an ecological crisis, an institutional crisis with a government without a parliamentary majority, an ideological crisis with the rise of extremes…
Are you talking about the National Rally and insubordinate France?
I do not want to go into the stigmatization of parties, but to warn about positions that weaken the republican cement. In this era of spectacularization of political life, the word of any mayor is demonetized in the face of self-proclaimed experts on television sets. This contributes to the rise of populism and a decline in political speech. To this is added a real political crisis: the PS at less than 5%, it is serious for the left, a Gaullist party, at least which claims it, like LR at less than 5%, it is serious for the political life of this country. We are witnessing a disintegration of relations with the institutions, part of the population has the feeling that the Republic no longer represents anything: there is a nostalgia for the past, a bitterness for the present and an anxiety for the future, exacerbated by the fear of downgrading. This tangle of phenomena was present before the triggering element.
Why did the “fire” spread this way? Why now ?
Nahel’s death, as inexplicable, inexcusable as it was, was a trigger, but there were plenty of warning signs. You have to see, really see, on the ground, the environment in which the population lives. The magistrates are in total saturation; when you discuss with police officers you understand that they are in an explosive situation, they are exhausted; teachers no longer have the same hope in their profession and in their vocation; hospital workers and caregivers work in deplorable conditions. It’s not just the neighborhood working classes, the middle classes also feel like they have a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Before, there were revolts in very square, well-defined sociological pockets, today, there is no such reading grid, no one is spared, it affects all cities and all territories. There is an inability to write a republican narrative in which hope and progress are shared.
The government has indicated that it does not want to once again take out the checkbook for the suburbs, Bruno Le Maire also said before the parliamentarians of the majority that it was “out of the question to spend billions on guys who are going to burn them “? Putting in additional resources, isn’t that the heart of the solution?
This intervention is voluntarily or involuntarily erroneous. It is not a question of having a debate on how many budget lines we are going to open for such and such a territory. It is, as I mentioned, the cement of our Republic that is weakened. We need to ask ourselves the right questions. Bruno Le Maire’s exit is as caricatural as Geoffroy Roux de Bézieux’s response [NDLR : “Le premier employeur de Seine-Saint-Denis, c’est le trafic de drogue”, a déclaré l’ex-président du Medef sur France Inter]. We expect more height of view and weighting than this speech which simply consists of saying: “We have put in billions, why does it not work?”
There are all the same, in the “suburbs” of large metropolises, specific situations. What are they missing? Silver ? Public officials? Services ?
I can tell you that there are many convergences between a remote rural territory and certain remote urban territories. The decline in public services is dramatic: their absence no longer allows people to project themselves, to look after themselves, to feel supported, to no longer suffer. This is not a subject only for the suburbs! The same goes for transport, it is they that facilitate access to education, health, employment, culture! A whole generation has been denied the right to hope.
“If we apprehend the subject through the prism of the suburbs, as before, we are seriously mistaken”
Senior civil servant Didier Leschi explained in our columns that in the suburbs there was a lack of vital forces to enable socialization. Do you share this observation?
Didier Leschi was [de 2013 à 2016] prefect for equal opportunities with the prefect of Seine-Saint-Denis, he has a relevant reading of the situation, which nevertheless, in my opinion, needs to be updated. From now on, there is a whole generation of mayors from working-class neighborhoods, both urban and rural, embodying a real popular elite who have appropriated knowledge and political power. More generally, if the subject is apprehended through the prism of the suburbs, as before, we are wrong. We are seriously mistaken. The working poor, young people on the decline, the question of what it means to be French, the relationship to the Republic, these are not problems of the suburbs, they concern the whole of France. The answer, I am firmly convinced, will come from the territories. The mayors and their associations were received at the Elysée at the start of the week, I would have liked to hear President Macron say to them first: “I understood you.”
Macronism 2.0, that of this second five-year term, had precisely the primary objective of “remaking the nation”, of rebuilding this cement around the Republic. Didn’t you feel it like that?
The president is a philosopher, so I’ll follow suit. Like Rousseau, he wants to make a new social contract, but without a social one. And if, in a Sartrean vision, man is nothing other than what he makes himself, without public power, we very quickly fall into trouble.
So how do you recreate a sense of belonging? How do we hook up these young people, in particular, to the Republic?
Very humbly and in a very practical way, let’s look at what we have done in Saint-Ouen, in Seine-Saint-Denis and with the Société du Grand Paris. For example, we put the package on 100% decent housing: can we not say, really, in 2023, that everyone has the right to decent housing in this country? Can’t we say that everyone has the right to quality education everywhere on the territory?
By signing a partnership agreement with the University of Paris-Cité to promote the establishment of the hospital-university campus and its 12,500 students in Saint-Ouen, we are enabling young people of the new generation to become doctors. I can also mention the Tony Parker Academy, dedicated to sports professions, the 42 school, specialized in cybersecurity, Audencia, the prestigious business school. With always the challenge of beauty in the various projects that we carry out: beauty makes everyday life proud and pleasant, and that is what we claim in our daily commitment to Saint-Ouen. Thus, we carry hope for an entire population. With lines 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 of the metro, we send the message to the person who is in the depths of an urban territory that he can move around, have access to training, employment, culture. The hyper-technostructure was built in such a way that everything was extremely Jacobinized; now, when you live on the outskirts, you must have the right to be the architect of your own life as if you were living in the centers of power and decision-making.
We often criticize the secession of the elites in this country, how to create a popular elite?
But it already exists! The popular elite is a whole generation of people between the ages of 20 and 60 whose parents and grandparents had to work five times harder to be masters of their own lives. This is what the republican ideal had in store for them. Today, this popular elite manifests itself in knowledge, creation, entrepreneurship and political power. It is the opposite of what was done before in a hypercentralized environment. If we want a lasting solution to consolidate the Republic, this generation must gain control, in particular the control of political decisions.
Your city is to host the athletes’ village as part of the Paris Olympics in 2024, how do you view this deadline now?
The Olympics are going to go well, and I hope that the party will be a success. The Minister of Sports, Amélie Oudéa-Castéra, is sensitive to it being inclusive for everyone. We will remain vigilant so that these Games improve people’s lives, with new infrastructures, with the transformation of neighborhoods. There must be a legacy, this ambition must be respected.