“Certain feminist movements will see me as a rabid pronatalist…” she sighs. But at 80 years old and after many battles, Elisabeth Badinter has long stopped caring about what people say. Gentlemen, one more effort… is a warning whose publication was postponed by the disappearance of her husband Robert. The philosopher warns of the fall in the birth rate which, she fears, could turn against women through pronatalist policies carried out by conservative and religious parties, as we are already seeing in Hungary, Italy or the United States. . For the icon of universalist feminism, it is, on the contrary, up to men to lighten the burden weighing on current mothers, caught between their careers, family tasks and the cult of the child king.
In a long interview with L’Express, Elisabeth Badinter explains how it is easy to make women feel guilty, but also why the issue of abortion “could cost Donald Trump dearly”. She reiterates her commitment to GPA, which is today the subject of an attack by conservative media. To voters tempted by the RN vote, she reminds “the detestable origins” of the party, but believes that Gabriel Attal responds better than Emmanuel Macron to the “desire for order” expressed by part of the country.
L’Express: Your book discusses the demographic decline facing many countries. But isn’t the decline in the birth rate good news for women, knowing that their access to education is one of the important factors?
Elisabeth Badinter: I wouldn’t say that the declining birth rate is “good news”, but the consequence of many other factors. It is true that when we study for a long time, we have children later. The average age of the first child has increased from 27.8 years in 2000 to 31 years today. Especially since more girls leave university with a higher education diploma, 55% compared to 45% of boys. But I am convinced that this demographic decline represents a real political problem if it continues at this rate for several more years.
You fear the possible consequences on women of pronatalist policies carried out by conservative or religious parties…
Absolutely. Look at what’s happening right now. The head of the Italian government, Giorgia Meloni, has just added a psychological obstacle to abortion, by authorizing anti-abortion groups to enter clinics to try to dissuade women from aborting. But it is very easy to make women feel guilty about this. Meloni certainly did not abolish the right to abortion passed in Italy in 1978, but in fact, it has become difficult to find a doctor willing to perform this procedure, particularly in the south of Italy.
Florida has just banned all abortions after six weekscompared to fifteen weeks previously…
Only six weeks to have an abortion (she sighs)… Already, it often takes three weeks for a woman to realize that she is pregnant. Who could have imagined that a great democracy like the United States would end the right to abortion in fourteen states just two years ago? At the same time, the subject of abortion can cost Donald Trump dearly. Ohio, a state won by the Republicans in 2016 as in 2020, for example adopted by referendum the protection of the right to abortion in its Constitution.
“It is not up to politicians to impose laws for sharing dishes. It would be grotesque”
France has long held up well in terms of birth rates, but it is plummeting today…
We are still the best in Europe in this area. France has a long tradition that it only partly shared with England, namely the separation of the roles of women and mothers. It was understood that caring for children was not worthy of a woman from the aristocracy or the good bourgeoisie, that they had better things to do than take care of the “brats” and that no one would found fault. On the contrary. This idea of motherhood in France was very original. Conversely, countries which have long confused women and mothers, such as the countries of southern Europe, have seen an earlier decline in their birth rate. There mamma Italian, and even the Mutter German are caricature models of the mother. The whole essence of a woman would be in motherhood. Fortunately, things have changed, because there has been an effective feminist movement.
But how do you explain this drop in the birth rate? Even the Scandinavian countries, the most egalitarian, have historically low rates…
Two objective changes which meet and oppose each other are shaking up our Western society. The first is “me first” which goes hand in hand with the search for personal development. The second is “child first”! If we decide to have a child, we owe him everything: his energy, his time and his infinite patience. The stress, the daily fatigue of mothers who work full time must be completely forgotten in front of the child king. From conception, the embryo is already the boss.
You confessed to smoking during your pregnancies. Today, it’s almost criminal…
Everything that neurologists and pediatricians state as law, we must submit to. They are probably right on a lot of points, but there is no longer any choice left to the mother. When you can no longer drink a single glass of wine in the evening, or smoke a cigarette in the morning… And I’m not talking about the guilt… How far away are the 1970s when you could live your pregnancy carefree.
And what about fathers?
Statistics show that there is still no real sharing of family tasks between men and women, and this is one of the primary causes of women’s disengagement in maternity matters. It is not up to politicians to impose laws for sharing dishes. That would be grotesque. We are in the private sphere, where pressure is difficult. Why do we continue to talk about double working days for women, and not for men?
If you look at the daily life of a mother of young children, and who has a full-time job, quite frankly, it’s tough. For what ? Because you have to think about an infinite number of details of daily life concerning of course the children, but also everything else, the daily management of the house. The vaccine for one, medication for the other, clothes that are too small… Every day, we have to start by taking care of these details that make life very stressful for mothers.
“Honestly, perfect mothers are as rare as Mozart”
But with the attention paid to the mental load, is there not an evolution on the men’s side today?
At a time when the universalist feminism of the 1970s was dominant, there were real changes in the behavior of men and women. In the public domain and in access to employment, spectacular progress has been made. Between 1975 and 2021, the activity rate of women increased from 54.5% to 70%, close to that of men which is 76%. But this did not carry over into private life. We work like you, but you don’t get involved like us at home. Even if men today invest more in raising children (twenty minutes more per day on national average than in the 1980s), the gap remains too significant. When men respond to their wives “but you didn’t ask me!”…
This lack of sharing, which would relieve women, is a secret reason for the fall in the birth rate. Especially since personal development has become a strong demand for men and women. Today, we evaluate what a child offers in terms of pleasures and sorrows. It is a real anthropological revolution. We would never have thought like this before the 1970s. Especially since for decades the great illusion reigned consisting of thinking that motherhood was the crowning achievement of femininity, and an assurance of emotional happiness. We never talked about the charges then.
You also criticize positive education. For what ?
Because this school of thought requires great patience, self-forgetfulness and time to explain to the child the reason for his emotions. You have just finished a day at work, and if your child throws a tantrum or a tantrum, you should definitely not scold them, as this could have harmful effects on their brain. Who can seriously think that mothers of the 21st century, already burdened with a thousand worries, can afford the luxury of experimenting with a new education that has not proven itself? Today, if you want children, you have to be an exemplary mother. Now, frankly, perfect mothers are as rare as Mozarts.
For you, pronatalist policies must above all be aimed at men…
Until now, we have always addressed women. But they do what they can given our new hedonistic environment. Men still have room to spare. Fathers certainly do things, but not necessarily the most boring or repetitive ones. They too often lack initiative. A child needs medicine? It’s the mother who goes to the pharmacy.
“The debate once again spills over into GPA”
While nearly 60% of French people are in favor of it, conservative media have launched an offensive against GPA, notably highlighting the figure of Olivia Maurel. What do you think ?
I committed to ethical surrogacy ten years ago. I am always told that there is an exchange of money. But it is normal to reimburse all expenses of a woman who is going to assume a pregnancy. This seems obvious to me. There, the debate boils over again. I think that the concept of “commodification” of the body has been an effective slogan to maintain the ban on surrogacy in France.
Are the excesses of the far left making us lose sight of the offensive of the far right?
One does not go without the other. Each time Mélenchon adds another layer of provocation, voters who are not initially on the far right say “why not try”. I am struck by the number of people explaining that the RN has evolved, and that it no longer represents a danger.
Even retirees are increasingly tempted by the RN vote. How do you interpret it?
It is a desire for order, a fear of the dissolution of our values that our governments fail to strengthen. But I notice that Gabriel Attal talks more about order than Macron, which earns him a rather good level of appreciation for a Prime Minister. He is clear on these issues. The problem is that his University Minister is doing the opposite of what he says…
What would you say to people tempted by the RN vote?
The RN has detestable origins. Beware of the cat that sleeps and puts us to sleep with it. You can bitterly regret it, and France with you.
Gentlemen, one more effort…, by Elisabeth Badinter. Flammarion/Plon, 88 p., €14.90.
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