The Council of Elders of Secularism, created in 2018 by Jean-Michel Blanquer to “specify the position of the educational institution in terms of secularism and secular teaching of religious facts”, maintained close relations with the former cabinet. Since the arrival of Pap Ndiaye Rue de Grenelle last July, the body composed of 18 members, confesses to having to adapt to a change of method. “But we continue to play our role of adviser and actor”, assures its president Dominique Schnapper.
The sociologist returns in particular to the damage of the “no wave”, on the recent “offensive of the abayas”, or even on the emblematic turmoil which recently shook the Interministerial Delegation for the fight against racism and anti-Semitism (Dilcrah).
L’Express: According to the latest figures made public by the ministry, attacks on secularism and the principles of the Republic in schools were in sharp decline between December and January (from 363 to 280 reports in the second degree). Can we deduce that the situation is improving on the ground?
Dominique Schnapper: A preliminary precision: these statistical data have, of course, the advantage of indicating a trend, but we know from experience that the figure “in absolute value” does not mean much. Many attacks on secularism go unreported. Before the information reaches the end of the chain, the teacher concerned must first decide to point out the problem he is facing (which is far from always the case), pass it on to his head of establishment, then that the latter in turn seizes the inspector of academy, the rectorate…
Precisely: a recent survey of school heads* affirms that in secondary school, 43% of those who had to deal with students wearing outfits with religious connotations did not report it to the institution…
In fact, I took note of the investigation carried out by this union of management personnel that we had met at the start of the year. The results of this survey are in line with studies previously carried out by Ifop for the National Committee for Secular Action or the Jean-Jaurès Foundation. These things being said: the drop in attacks on secularism reported to the ministry indicates an encouraging trend. What has been called “the wave of abayas” – this Islamist offensive launched in the last quarter of last year and fed by social networks – seems to be ebbing.
How do you explain it?
My hypothesis is that some activists wanted to test the new Minister of National Education when he arrived. As of May 31, 2022, the Council of Elders had alerted the cabinet to this movement which already seemed to be gaining ground. The Minister decided without hesitation to take up some of our recommendations in his circular of November 9, which firmly recalled the framework of the law and the measures to be taken in the event of obstacles. This has helped, it seems, to stem the phenomenon. But we must remain vigilant because we are indeed dealing with an organized political attack. It is up to us to make this clear to the pupils but also to the new generation of young teachers who, alas, are not always aware of it.
Some analysts suggest that too much publicity on these issues amounts to adding fuel to the fire and making the situation worse. What do you think ?
It is not the fact of talking about it that creates the danger. Quite the contrary! Keeping silent in the name of the famous “pas de vague” only encourages the enemies of secularism to continue and intensify their fight. The irenic discourse implies that the attacks against secularism are only a “reaction” in defense and not the result of an ideological offensive… This is really not understanding the problem.
What relationship have you had with the ministry since the arrival of Pap Ndiaye Rue de Grenelle?
Jean-Michel Blanquer had himself created our body and was therefore naturally attached to it. He consulted us a lot, answered very quickly, never missed an opportunity to remind us of our existence… Of course, the relationship we have with the new minister is a little more distant. But it is normal for acclimatization to take place gradually. We have not yet had the opportunity to discuss with the new secularism advisor to the cabinet, appointed last January, but a meeting should take place soon. Furthermore, I had the opportunity to speak with Pap Ndiaye shortly after his appointment last June. During this interview, the Minister told me of his desire to expand the scope of our body by giving it the name of Council of Elders of Secularism “and the Values of the Republic” and by appointing three or four new members , which seems like good news to me.
What conclusions do you draw from your action?
We are happy to see that our work is bearing fruit since we are increasingly solicited and consulted by academies, rectors, inspectors, secular referents… The vast plan, launched at the start of the 2022 academic year and aimed at mobilizing 1000 new trainers throughout the territory keep us busy. Some tools we have put in place have also proven their usefulness. I am thinking, for example, of the means deployed to fight against the medical certificates of convenience requested by young girls who refuse to go to the swimming pool at school for religious reasons.
A delicate subject since it comes up against the question of medical secrecy…
It just seemed important to us to fight against a certain form of fatalism. This idea that “no one could do anything about it”. After bringing together a working group, we produced a document that can be downloaded online so that school heads, faced with this phenomenon, have a clear procedure to follow. The idea was to encourage them to share their possible doubts with the departmental order of doctors to enable it to act if necessary. But the simple fact of daring to talk about it often makes it possible to solve the problems upstream. Passing through Dole, in the academy of Besançon, we were told about this doctor who issued medical certificates for “chlorine allergy”. However, information taken, the city did not treat the water of its swimming pools with chlorine!
You who chaired the Scientific Council of the Dilcrah between 2016 and 2019, how do you view the recent dissolution of this body?
The Dilcrah was crossed by a violent internal ideological battle, opposing those who can be called the “wokists” to the “republicans”. The former accusing psychoanalysts Céline Masson and Caroline Eliacheff of transphobia, which I find absolutely frightening! These two specialists only call for caution in the face of requests for surgical interventions from adolescents aged 13-14. Like them, it seems important to me to wait until these young people have become fully conscious adults to carry out this type of operation with irreversible physical consequences. A body like that of the Scientific Council of the Dilcrah can be crossed by certain divergences, but it must know how to overcome them to carry out its mission of advice. It was apparently no longer possible so, in my opinion, the dissolution was inevitable.
The government would consider extending the Universal National Service to all second-grade students. Is this a good idea in your opinion?
Anything that can contribute to recreating and strengthening the link, the common, seems to me to be going in the right direction. I only wonder about the feasibility of such a project because supervising between 700,000 and 800,000 young people seems to me very complicated to organise. Five years ago, when this initiative was still at the experimental stage, we intervened during a training course intended for supervisors to address the theme of secularism with them. If the Council of Elders is called upon again, as Secretary of State Sarah El Haïry seems to wish, we will obviously respond to their request.
*Survey by the National Union of National Education Management Staff published on March 8, 2023.